lostintrafficlights:
hanryufan:
lostintrafficlights:
hanryufan:
lostintrafficlights:
hanryufan:
Plastic surgery is huuuuuuge in South Korea, and men and women alike get it (and men and women alike are made fun of or gossiped about over it, especially for getting too much of it). Off the top of my head I can think of several men who’ve been called “plastic surgery monsters” by Korean people, and many others still who’ve been speculated about heavily.
There’s a female artist who’s had an unhealthily large amount of surgery and clearly has a lot of issues, but instead of defending her as a human being, this person has decided that it’s misogyny. They’re trying to make it out as though the Korean public thinks they own her body and can dictate what she can and can’t do with it, when in reality they’re just expressing their opinions.
Some (clearly blind) people maintain that she’s never had any surgery, and some of those people justify that stance by saying that her boss would step in before she did anything too extreme. This person took offense to that notion, saying “because everyone knows a 30 year old should not be allowed to make decisions about their body without first consulting their male boss”. What this person fails to (or refuses to) realize is that regardless of gender, he is her boss. If it was part of her contract that she would not get plastic surgery, she would be legally obligated not to get surgery. Clearly it’s not part of her contract, but if it was it would be well within his rights as her boss to step in and tell her not to. The person claims that it’s her private life and should basically never be talked about, but she’s a celebrity entertainer; certain things are going to be talked about publicly, and her face is one of them.
The artist in question has a very ditsy and childlike image (as is quite common in South Korea, and not just for women), so it’s understandable that people would regard her a bit like a child even though she’s almost 30. She’s also very lovable, so a lot of people argue with each other and try to defend her over various things.
There’s a male artist who has also had a ton of plastic surgery, but unlike the female artist in question, he’s very public about it and has a healthy attitude about it. Tons of people still make fun of him for it and talk shit, but he just laughs along. I guess all those people talking shit and being very vocal about their opinions don’t count because he’s male though?
And as for beauty standards, men are talked about in general just as much. Men may not be bashed quite as much, since most Kpop fans are female, but they’re still bashed much more than is necessary.
This is not a feminist issue. This is not a gendered issue. This is a human issue, and you’re only making things worse for everybody involved by trying to cram it into your bullshit problematic cookie cutter that says only women can ever suffer and only men cause suffering.
What really fuckin’ pisses me off though is when people try to make a big deal out of something, and then list things that completely counteract their argument in their argument. They listed two women who don’t fall into her view of women as universal victims, who are respected for their decisions regarding their appearance… and yet somehow being respected is still impossible for women? Make up your fucking mind. Two top artists aren’t an exception to the rule, they’re part of the rule.
Awwwww look at this little pissbaby talking out of their ass
Since you clearly have nothing to counter with, why even bother replying? It just makes you look stupid and pressed.
Because it was literally not worth the rebuttal. As a Korean woman in Korea I just sort of laughed at how much of your knowledge is built on grasping at straws and making things up about Korean culture.
Stay ignorant :D
If you’re unwilling to even make an attempt, you’ve already lost. “I’m a Korean woman in Korea” is a completely worthless statement unless you’re actually willing to put your money where your mouth is and provide any kind of actual argument other than “you should believe me because I say so”.
I provided a medium length analysis of the topic (which was primarily centered around the kpop subculture); you provided insults and excuses as to why you shouldn’t have to explain yourself. Who’s really grasping at straws here?
Stay pressed :D
And that is where you’re wrong.
Korean society is not kpop. It works in completely different ways, the same ways that American pop cannot accurately reflect American society. But you are assuming that it is so in all of Korean society, sooooo…..
Now, if you want a call out? You’re getting one.
Plastic surgery is huuuuuuge in South Korea
Not as huge as you think.
Off the top of my head I can think of several men who’ve been called “plastic surgery monsters” by Korean people, and many others still who’ve been speculated about heavily.
And they’re celebrities. Same with female celebrities. However the misogyny lies in the fact that 1). the repercussions for female celebrities are more severe 2). “plastic surgery monsters” originates from making fun of women who got plastic surgery, and has evolved into a trope depicting mostly women living or frequenting Gangnam and Cheongdam, whereas for men it’s a fucking tiny percentage of the population that gets called that. There are even sites where men congregate and put up pictures of women who may or may not have had plastic surgery so they can look at them; I do not see a similar site made by women. 3). the reason why these men get ridiculed is because they are participating in something that is culturally understood as a female thing.
There’s a female artist who’s had an unhealthily large amount of surgery and clearly has a lot of issues, but instead of defending her as a human being, this person has decided that it’s misogyny. They’re trying to make it out as though the Korean public thinks they own her body and can dictate what she can and can’t do with it, when in reality they’re just expressing their opinions.
The larger issue here is that 1). body autonomy of male and female celebrities alike are not considered to belong to them by the public everywhere on the planet. 2). however in the process of dissecting and consuming said bodies in entertainment industries, women do often go through a harsher lens, which is again, misogynistic.
The artist in question has a very ditsy and childlike image (as is quite common in South Korea, and not just for women), so it’s understandable that people would regard her a bit like a child even though she’s almost 30
Overwhelmingly for women, actually.
There’s a male artist who has also had a ton of plastic surgery, but unlike the female artist in question, he’s very public about it and has a healthy attitude about it.
Because maybe he doesn’t have the stupidly heavy pressure that women have?
And as for beauty standards, men are talked about in general just as much.
For celebrities-yes, because they’re celebrities. In real life? No. Hell no. Countless times shit like “you’re a girl, be careful not to hurt your face” “you’re a girl, don’t go out in the sun and get tanned” “you’re a girl, your skin is important” happens. I’ve never seen any of that happen to my brother, or the large number of male acquaintances that I’ve had.
In other words, you’re conflating Kpop as synonymous with Korean society and its culture and the way patriarchy works in Korean society, which isn’t true-yes, there are a lot of ways they influence each other but ultimately they’re not the same thing.
So why don’t you fuck off and go back to your shithole where you came from before you give ~omg expert opinions~ on misogyny in Korea :D
Did I say Korean society was kpop? No.
To be more specific, it was an analysis of human nature, gynocentricism, and a little bit of Korean society through the kpop subculture, so the scope is of course going to be a little narrow. I don’t pretend to know everything about Korean culture (or hell, even my own culture), but my observations were sound. You’ve started your argument by putting words into my mouth though, so this doesn’t look too good. (Technically you started by calling me a pissbaby, but we’ll ignore that~)
Alrighty, to start: I’m not sure if you’re aware, but South Korea has the highest plastic surgery rate in the world by quite a bit. Of course that doesn’t mean everybody and their uncle is going under the knife, but it’s still significant. Certainly significant to warrant the use of an elongated “huge” to describe it.
Moving on, 1). You say this, and yet female celebrities who’ve had plastic surgery aren’t moving any less albums. They’re not getting any less media appearances. They’re not selling any less concert tickets. It’s not affecting their success, so what are these “more severe repercussions” that you’re speaking of? Unless you actually say what the repercussions are, that statement is meaningless.
2). It’s certainly possible (and even likely) that the specific phrase “plastic surgery monster” is used to refer to women more often than men, and I never said it wasn’t. I simply stated that I could easily think of several instances (some of which are well known) in which men were referred to that way, and that that meant that this isn’t a problem that solely affects women, regardless of what the percentages may be.
Indeed, when one does a google image search of 성괴 it’s obvious that most of the results are women, but there are still men present on every page of the search. Counting the first 100 results, 80 of them were pictures of women, while 8 of them were men. The rest were things like cartoons and 3D game characters, so we’ll disregard those. 1 in 11 is small, but it’s far from “fucking tiny”. Even if it happens most often to women, the fact that it happens to men too means that it’s not misogyny, it’s just a problem that happens to affect more women than men.
As for those sites, that’s terrible! However, I have to ask: are you absolutely sure that it’s only men that do it, and not just an assumption you’re making? Human nature tends to show that women are much more likely to insult women than men are, regardless of cultural differences. I don’t see why Koreans would be much different, since they’re humans too. Either way, such sites are definitely a problem, I agree. Nobody should be subject to such ridicule by anybody.
3). You’re right, but that doesn’t make it misogyny. This image explains why:
(I’m not saying that this specific issue is misandry, since it obviously affects a significant number of women as well, but this is a good guide for any such situations that may arise)
Second round of numbers, 1). This is sort of true, but mostly to the extent that people in general have much stronger opinions about celebrities than they should. Nobody in their right mind actually thinks they own a celebrity, but that clearly doesn’t stop them from trying to tell them what to do anyway.
2). Women do tend to go through a harsher lens, this is definitely true. As I explained above though, it’d only be misogynistic if it was only women who are subject to this, not just a majority. The fact that men are also affected means that it’s not misogyny, it’s just a problem that affects more women than men.
Overwhelmingly for women, actually.
Hey now, I’ve got access to the same media play that you do. I’ve seen all those guys doing aegyo and acting like little kids and such. You can’t pull the wool over my eyes on this one! It’s definitely more common for women to behave this way, but it’s not uncommon for guys to do it too.
Because maybe he doesn’t have the stupidly heavy pressure that women have?
Perhaps. Or maybe it’s because he finds it easier to laugh with people than just to be laughed at.
I won’t doubt that women have more pressure to look good in the general population, but right now we’re talking about celebrities. Young celebrities, at that. The stakes are different; men also feel immense pressure to look good in the public eye.
For celebrities-yes, because they’re celebrities. In real life? No. Hell no. Countless times shit like “you’re a girl, be careful not to hurt your face” “you’re a girl, don’t go out in the sun and get tanned” “you’re a girl, your skin is important” happens. I’ve never seen any of that happen to my brother, or the large number of male acquaintances that I’ve had.
I said “talked about”. You’re speaking of “talked to”, which is entirely different. Treating young women like children seems to be a somewhat common problem in Korea, but that has little relevance to things like gossip.
Also, just to note: just because you’ve never seen something doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It’s much more likely though that instead a man would be told to do things that are attributed to the male gender role, like to be chivalrous, or to take on excess responsibility. How many girls have you seen be told to “man up”? Probably none.
In other words, you’re conflating Kpop as synonymous with Korean society and its culture and the way patriarchy works in Korean society, which isn’t true-yes, there are a lot of ways they influence each other but ultimately they’re not the same thing.
This is an assumption you’ve made on your own. I’m well aware of the difference between a country’s entertainment industry and the actual country as a whole. The media of any country is a reflection of that country’s ideals on various levels, which gives a unique look into the thought processes and etc of that particular culture. Obviously it’s not a 100% accurate portrayal of day to day life, that would be boring to the people that actually live that day to day life. I’ve been studying how things portrayed in the media relate to the ideals and attitudes of the general public of a society for a while now; I’m not just taking it as a literal representation. I’m no expert, but I’ve gotten pretty good at it nonetheless.
As for “patriarchy”, Korea is a society in which women are allowed to run for political office, vote, have jobs, and head households. It may not be particularly common or even encouraged at this point, but it means that Korea is no longer patriarchal.
Honestly, all I can judge is by what I’ve observed and read/heard about, as well as by what other Koreans have told me, and you’re singing a pretty different tune than the other Koreans I know. So, what makes your word more reliable than theirs? Do you have some hard statistics to back your claims up or something? If you do, please don’t hold back. You’re gonna need them to pull your argument back up out of the ground.
So why don’t you fuck off and go back to your shithole where you came from before you give ~omg expert opinions~ on misogyny in Korea :D
Nope, it doesn’t.
Like the dramatic increase in Anti-fans using it as an excuse to attack them? Like the way the replies on news sites go from “she’s so pretty” to “she’s so plastic?
This is actually really flawed as it disregards the systematical way women is treated vs. the small handful of men. And in the case of men, as I said again, it’s considered a bad thing because plastic surgery is inherently a woman’s thing in Korea. It’s marketed exclusively towards women, and while the number of men who do get them are rising the targeted people who are mocked are usually women. Which is why the male counterpart of this comic doesn’t exist.
Setting how misogynistic this is aside, yeah, ilbe is mostly run by MRAs, so….
And that is called systematical sexism, which is rooted in misogyny. Also your so called graphic is false, as not only is your source one of the worse cases of “we all bleed red” shit I’ve ever seen, actually, women ARE rewarded for masculine behavior in Korea, which was actually the entire point of Miss A’s “I don’t need a man” i.e patriarchy likes to favor women who step out of feminine roles. However, women who do partake in feminine roles are mocked as (words from your mouth) “shallow” “plastic” etc.
Also the thing is when men aegyo, that’s considered something special. When women do it, it’s considered a default. It’s what we are expected to do, which is why women get the “why don’t you have any aegyo for your guy” question and men do not.
Actually a lot. Actually acting too feminine is discouraged. Look up the stereotype of the 내숭쩌는 여자 or shit like that you come up with literally thousands of critiques.
The thing is though you keep conflating the two. You keep doing that. And it’s annoying as fuck to a person who’ve actually lived here for 20 odd years.
Patriarchy doesn’t mean “omg women aren’t allowed to do anything”. Patriarchy means that men take a central role in government, economics, head of the house, etc etc. Now let’s count the number of women we have as CEOs, politicians, etc. Surprisingly enough, not a lot. Korea is still a patriarchy, and I would argue that most of the world is.
Woah man because obviously no Korean can speak good English or have ~westernized views~ although most women that I have met and worked with and studied with have these views amirite?
Dear Hanryufan: go fuck yourself.
